Anti-Neocons Forum

Wouldn't "it be cool if Ron Paul wrote up some good legislation", like he has done, but this time we the people would vote on whether or not to pass it. 24 states do this now. This is why in California the people voted on medical marijuana and gay marriage, not the politicians.

One day the rest of the states will have it, and we'll have it federally as well. It's a win win. The voter stills gets to vote for their politician, and have a voice that counts on the key issues that effect their lives, within the constitution. Equally we can hold accountable those that break the constitution.

It's called Constitutional Direct Democracy. It's not a mob rule, the mob is in the white house and they make unconstitutional rules. We have to have some sort of boundary, and the constitution is it, this is why all initiatives (bills/laws/acts,etc) must be deemed as constitutional by the supreme courts, which have consistently, and historically, changed it's views along with the society they live in.

With all do respect, putting hope, or trust, into any politician with the way the system is set up, it's the same road we've always been on, and it's a dead end road. We must start pushing ideas, not people and politicians, or at the very least push them along side, but only the politicians that understand the importance of democracy vs a republic of trust only politicians to make all decisions for the corporations that put them there.

Constitutional Direct Democracy is a win win, the people working in partnership with government. We enact the laws that effect our lives, force the constitution to be upheld according to the supreme courts, and the politicians make the day to day operations of working for the people, run smoother. win win.

Lean more about this at: http://www.vote.org

-Tommy Decentralized (empowering the people one person at a time)

ps. we do not care (much) about the trolls that only come out to vote for the puppet president, those that are into politics, and vote year round, are the voices that will take advantage of having a venue to be able to do anything)

This is why in California the people voted on medical marijuana and gay marriage, not the politicians

That's called a referendum and all 50 states have it.

I am so glad you brought this up here where you can't run away like on youtube.

1 No one can be held accountable when bad and really stupid laws are passed, because no one knows who voted for them, they'd just come from the public.

2 It is mob rule. Even with the constitution preventing things the courts will deem unconstitutional, (if they do) you're letting the masses choose legislation. This makes it media rule, because the masses are morons.

3 It just leads to regional scape goating.

For example in North Carolina, the bulk of the state in inland. They could careless about raising taxes on say fishing or commercial fishing because most of them they don't live on the ocean. It would totally fuck up the coastal area though. They could have a direct vote and the cities win, and the coast would lose. People in land wouldn't care because they don't have to pay it.

That's why we have congressional districts. Different areas have different needs and people not effected by things aren't always educated enough about issues to have a say in them.

Right now we live on an Island where we can't even go to the beach because some mainland granola brainless idiots got a enviroMENTAL judge to decree our beaches be shut down. The people that support this do so because they are fucking clueless morons who assume they are "helping the environment." There is also a 12.75% occupancy tax on motel rooms. Who does that hurt? It hurts the coast and vacation areas. But because of mob rule we have to deal with it. We cannot have liqueur in bars or restaurants, either because of some holy roller christian herds who think it is immoral, they also want to make it illegal for more that one couple to stay in a motel room together.

Look at some of the other stupid shit Americans in general fall for. They supported Ethanol from corn and fuel cells in cars because they didn't understand that it takes more energy to make than what it saves. It was a lot easier un-spinning that propaganda for congress than it was to re-educate 300 million people. Over a third of Americans think that we've been visited by space aliens.

71% think Iran has a nuclear bomb. This is with out the media having to focus on them. As it is now, the public really doesn't matter. If they allowed direct voting for legislation the media would focus on the lowest common denominator and manipulate it. They do it now even without even needing to do it.

Who do you think voted for the idiots in congress? The idiot public that is who. And do you know how many times you'd have to vote on things and count votes for hundreds of millions of voters? It would be everyday. People just are not that politically educated.

The people of Kansas even with the check of needing two thirds got creationism into schools and denies evolution. The City of SF wanted to ban hand guns. They'd jump on any media trend from global warming to hate crime laws.

And we'd be open to blackmail and threats. It can be done but its hard to blackmail congress, it's easy to do it to my neighbors.

We need less democracy. There is a reason you have to be 18 to vote. There should be more filters on idiots. For example political parties should not be listed on ballots and neither should race or gender. A minimal a person should know the person they want to vote for's name.

Do you know why strip clubs, titty bars, MMA etc are allowed in states? Because they make money. They should be allowed anyway but the reason is, they make money for the government. But they don't make money for the public at large. And I can tell you that in Jesus land they'd all be shut down tomorrow is the public could vote directly and anonymously.

4 We can't hold votes on everything, we simply don't have the time, and it's dumb to do it especially with no rigorous debates. But when you let the public vote, there can't be a debate, its impossible, and you'd be assuming they knew what they were voting for, which in most cases they have no clue. It's fine fir a town meeting, but its just not feasible or even sensible to try to do it for the whole nation.

Hey why not just tax the rich 99% of their money and give it to the masses. Or ban Harry Potter books in the South. The possibilities of mob rule are endless.

You have to have accountability when voting for new laws. We also needs reps, bad as they are, because there are too many laws to pass of other areas of the state. There are too many issues, no debates, and it's too hard for most people to understand or have the time to get educated about every single thing every law passed.

and don't go pretending that unless we have direct elections on everything that the only alternative if putting trust in politicians. I have even less trust for the media and the public as a whole. We've got local and state governments where we can have an impact. We don't need a federal government at all. I don't want people in California telling me what to do. In fat in your example, it was the federal government that stepped in and said no to gay marriage. That was Obama. Just get rid of federal governmental. The military works just fine under a confederation. Post offices can be private just like they are in Japan, as can nearly everything else the federal government does as it is in Japan.

That's called a referendum and all 50 states have it. "

--No, it's called initiative ballots. and only 24 states have it. (look it up)

"I am so glad you brought this up here where you can't run away like on youtube."

--I've never ran away from anything in my life,. I only recently realized you unblocked me from your youtube account.

"1 No one can be held accountable when bad and really stupid laws are passed, because no one knows who voted for them, they'd just come from the public."

--No initiative can come up for vote unless it;s deemed constitutional.

"2 It is mob rule. Even with the constitution preventing things the courts will deem unconstitutional, (if they do) you're letting the masses choose legislation. This makes it media rule, because the masses are morons."

--So you think when California had a state initiative on medical marijuana, and it passed because we the people should have an opinion that counts, vs you only trusting politicians to vote on every issue for you, the same road we've always know, whereas the mob in white house makes unconstitutional laws. Yo call the people in California taking part in representing themselves and what they want in their state, you cal them voting on med marijuana, passed, gay marriage not passed, each have been deemed constitutional by the courts first, but yet, you call voting on on state initiative a mob rule. Yes Ry, lets just silence all of the dumb people your media whores make examples of, and completely ignore the fact that smart people have made the world you take for granted, talk to people, They;re not stupid like your TV wants you to pretend. So TV makes examples out of a few, and you're just so much smarter than the rest of the world bec you worship a politician that worships the market of greed, how sad. Silence the people. way to go man, way to go...


"3 It just leads to regional scape goating.

For example in North Carolina, the bulk of the state in inland. They could careless about raising taxes on say fishing or commercial fishing because most of them they don't live on the ocean. It would totally fuck up the coastal area though. They could have a direct vote and the cities win, and the coast would lose. People in land wouldn't care because they don't have to pay it."

--Well then oh my gosh Ry, I guess you better call up NC and tell them to get rid of their state initiative ballot program that they already have!
It's not a go hog wild anyone can propose anything they want. It doesn't work that way. Try doing some homework.

as for the rest of your babbling gobbledygook. Ask yourself what stops congress, or and or the local politicians, from having a minority mob rule and passing all of the idiotic stuff you just mentioned now? The same think that stops initiative ballots from doing that now. The constitution. duh.

Both you guys bring up some great points. Here is my truth.


1. Whereas it is my understanding that the geographical area of Planet Earth commonly known as the united States of America is a Common Law jurisdiction.

2. Common Law, which applies to all men and women on Planet Earth, dictates that we are all born free to do what we choose for ourselves, provided that we do not infringe the rights to life, freedom and property of another.

3. All Acts are statutes restricted in scope and are limited to members and employees of government.

4. A statute is defined as a legislated rule of society which has been given the force of law.

5. A society is defined as a community of Men and Women joined by mutual consent to deliberate, determine and act for a common goal or purpose.

6. Men and Women born anywhere on Planet Earth have a natural and unalienable right to self-determination, and can, at any time, choose to revoke or deny their consent to be governed.

7. I am not a child, but a fully grown adult Man, who operates with a sound mind, diligent responsibility and maximum freedom, therefore, I do not recognize any perceived obligation to ask permission to engage in lawful and peaceful activities, under any circumstances whatsoever.

8. Living freely in peace is within my community’s standards and does not create any loss, injury, damage or liability or breach the peace, in any way whatsoever.

Who created government? ......freemen and women.

Who has the authority over government? ......freemen and women.

"1 No one can be held accountable when bad and really stupid laws are passed, because no one knows who voted for them, they'd just come from the public."

--No initiative can come up for vote unless it;s deemed constitutional

So what? That doesn't make it accountable. No one can be voted out of office or replaced or fired for making incredibly stupid laws. A mob could and would pass things it wanted without having to answer for it.

as for the rest of your babbling gobbledygook. Ask yourself what stops congress, or and or the local politicians, from having a minority mob rule and passing all of the idiotic stuff you just mentioned now? The same think that stops initiative ballots from doing that now. The constitution. duh.

Um no it doesn't stop them. They make terrible laws all the time. What prevents them on the times they are prevented is the risk of being out of a job. What prevents the public from it is nothing. They can't be held responsible for stupid laws sense no one knows who voted for what and they hold no positions. It's just a way of letting a majority in an area do whatever it wants so long as its constitutional. The constitution does not stop stupidity.

Plus the public can't have voted everyday about everything. They wouldn't understand more than half of it. And who writes the law that they vote on?

Where I live, because of referendums/initiatives there is no liqueur allowed in bars. Why? Because a Christian community decided THEY didn't want it so now NO ONE can have it. That's perfectly constitutional, perfectly stupid and totally mob rule. That's direct democracy. Now if a politician did that kind of bull shit, they'd risk being booted out of office. But the mob can get away with anything.

I'm glad smoking medical pot is such a big deal to you. There is a referendum for California to legalize it outright as well. It's not because of liberty though. It's because they are totally broke and the state wants something new to tax.

A mob could easily raise the driving age to 18 if it wanted and they'd out vote the younger generation. A politician would catch flack for it. But mob could do it without consequence. There is no way to fight back.

BY the way there is nothing in the constitution for a federal referendum. Thus whatever a state decided the Federal government can just prevent it if it doesn't like it but allow it if they do like it. That just is another way to strengthen federal government.

Decentralized wrote:--No initiative can come up for vote unless it;s deemed constitutional.

And who decides if it's constitutional or not? The constitution itself, or the people running the show?

Lots of things are constitutional that are still bad. I don't want mob rule because there is no accountability and because in general people are stupid.

Religious kooks and environmental do gooders would strap this nation with so many restrictions you couldn't do anything any more.

Virginia passed an "education referendum" this way only it had nothing to do with education it was simply awarding construction companies 64 million dollars to do construction on school grounds. but just by naming it education referendum people went out and voted for it anyway. Sure politician could do that but its easy to get hold of ONE person and explain it to them. It's nearly impossible without mass media to reach an d explain it to the horde the mob all at once.

And if you think they saved money on construction to put in other things, think again. They just kept what was there plus the 64 mill to make bigger greater projects.

There is NO mob rule. unless you consider the supreme court to be the mob that rules, only then would you be correct.

I repeat no initiative can come up for vote unless it has been approved by the supreme court. The supreme courts views have consistently and historically changed along with the society they live in.

It's a very long process one that takes one - two years, sometimes more, before it ever reaches the ballot box for the general public to vote on.

And sure, people can be duped into something. But it's a lot easier to blackmail, pressure, etc a politician then it is millions of people, you have to consider that.

I just don't understand why you think doing nothing is a brilliant idea. and that you must silence the people, that they must remain voiceless at all cost. Trust only politicians. You do not know what is best for you, so you must trust only other people to vote on the issues for you, despite the fact that no two people agree on everything.


The catch by having all laws be deemed constitutional first, and to have us, the we the people vote on them, is because hopefully, we the people would not vote to wire tap ourselves with patriot acts. and i doubt we would vote to give billions of dollars to the banks to pay off debts, but of course that doesn't happen, no debts are wiped clean, despite they have been paid for. The Banks get it all. You still owe the bank, they get the house, and a bailout that paid for it. of course from money that was never there to begin with. Thanks to free trade empowering the fed to buy up the world's resources with a paper debt that will never be paid

I wanted to avoid this entire topic. I mean, from the title alone it was at least uninformed(Audit the Fed wasn't a good bill?). At most, ignorant. In any case, here's my $0.02

Decentralized, you seem to have a naive faith in the good of the majority. Perhaps you haven't studied history much, but typically minorities are persecuted and exploited by majorities. This quote particularly stood out:

And sure, people can be duped into something. But it's a lot easier to blackmail, pressure, etc a politician then it is millions of people, you have to consider that.

Is it really, though? The majority is always open to being mislead, molested, and otherwise manipulated by a select few in power. Look at the run up the Iraq War. I'm not sure how many pre-invasion protests you attended but I can tell you the peace rallies were DWARFED by the pro-war folks. And polls indicated the same thing. Sure, you might say, but give the people a few years and they'll get it right. Negative. We reelected George Bush. So... yep.