I disagree with you. I think you are minimalizing the impact collectivism has, and you're overlooking how much it is needed amongst people that were disenfranchised, not because they defined themselves as members of a group, but others ( who also use collectivism).It would be nice if people would all join causes, but it people did that there wouldn't be Racism, slavery, apartheid, genocide, and etc. The point of collectivism isn't necessarily meant to define a group as much as pool together resources such money or gain power in society. Take the black civil rights movement. The whole concept of race is ideological. It was a justification for one group of people to mistreat another group of people they defined. The black civil rights movement was more about combating racism. I think think Claude Anderson defines what racism is accurately, and also shows the necessity of collectivism. I'll post his video below.
Also, when you look at the LGBT, look at what they did. They formed a group, and help make their lifestyle more socially acceptable.
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Re: Response to As a X...(or as an x)
The civil rights movement succeeded because of all the non-black participants in it and because blacks would be a voting block for democrats in the future. Prejudice towards blacks has been maintained because of black identity politics. It was guys like Bill Cosby who was a sitcom star and comedian who helped dissuade prejudice in millions of American homes not by being a black comedian but by being a comedian who was also black. Having a black family on TV not defined by its otherness and blackness had more impact than the MTV trash that followed which created black stereotypes all negative by the way and a huge chip on the shoulder.
White prejudice is not out of the blue. Little white kids look around and count up the number of inventors, scientist, discoverers, philosophers, and so on and find that there is an abundance of white men and a sprinkle of Asians and Jews and nothing else. The most famous black people are so only for trying to be equal with whites. Saying blacks were enslaved and oppressed doesn't matter to them because to be enslaved one group had to be inferior to another already or the dominant groups wouldn't be able to enslave them. One society sailed around the world in ships and the other was still throwing spears at food. No one went down to Africa and forced them to be technologically inept. They see that not as environmental but as a genetic inferiority. Minorities in turn blame all the white people for past crimes which are in reality the result of the actions of GOVERNMENTS not races much less races many generations later.
Within Africa too its all about ethnic tribes and constant in-fighting in the Middle East its the same with one brand of Islam vs another and people constantly killing each other. It's classic divide and conquer. In Israel today it's the As a Jews, who collectively wear the holocaust as a badge who are colonizing the area with racial identity.
LGBT have not made their group more socially acceptable. They have done the opposite. Doing everything as homosexuals and only focusing on those issues has alienated them in the same way that feminist have alienated women. The acceptance of equality of women has come from all the normal women just being themselves and not defining themselves on the crutch of not being male.
White prejudice is not out of the blue. Little white kids look around and count up the number of inventors, scientist, discoverers, philosophers, and so on and find that there is an abundance of white men and a sprinkle of Asians and Jews and nothing else. The most famous black people are so only for trying to be equal with whites. Saying blacks were enslaved and oppressed doesn't matter to them because to be enslaved one group had to be inferior to another already or the dominant groups wouldn't be able to enslave them. One society sailed around the world in ships and the other was still throwing spears at food. No one went down to Africa and forced them to be technologically inept. They see that not as environmental but as a genetic inferiority. Minorities in turn blame all the white people for past crimes which are in reality the result of the actions of GOVERNMENTS not races much less races many generations later.
Within Africa too its all about ethnic tribes and constant in-fighting in the Middle East its the same with one brand of Islam vs another and people constantly killing each other. It's classic divide and conquer. In Israel today it's the As a Jews, who collectively wear the holocaust as a badge who are colonizing the area with racial identity.
LGBT have not made their group more socially acceptable. They have done the opposite. Doing everything as homosexuals and only focusing on those issues has alienated them in the same way that feminist have alienated women. The acceptance of equality of women has come from all the normal women just being themselves and not defining themselves on the crutch of not being male.
Get The Empire Unmasked here
Re: Response to As a X...(or as an x)
Okay, first of all I acknowledge the participation of non blacks, but the majority of the participants were black. prejudice and racism isn't necessarily one and the same. Racism, is a policy that was carried out during, and after slavery. It extended into Jim Crow. There were laws made to disenfranchise black people. It's bigger than someone hating someone for skin color. It wasn't entertainers that helped desegregate schools, it was brown vs the board of ed. It wasn't an entertainer that desegregated the buses in Montgomery is was a boycott. Yes, collectivism can be bad, but black had to unite in order to get things done. While there may have been non black contributors it wasn't like most of the nation supported blacks. Here blacks were, a group of people that were individuals, but knew there was power in numbers. They all experienced Jim Crow, and that's what they had in common. They united to fight against another collective that they were not allowed to be members of. While prejudice based on race is wrong. I think people trivialize black history. It was much more than someone hating you for being black. It was laws, society accepting the laws, and the impact that had on the next generation. It wasn't just hate, but a concerted effort to destroy blacks in every way imaginable. Legally, socially, and etc. I think there was also a genuine fear of black unity and success. Look up black wall street in Tulsa. Also, when you look at the civil rights movement and the black movement in general you noticed how things were watered down. People think minority is synonymous with blacks, but includes white women, other races, gay people, etc. Look at the black businesses that were destroyed after integration. Blacks had to integrate into the dominant society. There were blacks eager to sell out and stop supporting the businesses that serviced them. As far is your second point about white prejudice, it was ingrained from centuries of propaganda to make blacks inferior. They don't bother looking for black inventors, scientists, discoverers, philosophers, and so on because blacks are disregarded and discredited at every turn. What do people learn about blacks being in the America's before europeans, or black contributions to ancient civilizations in the America's. No one teaches it, and if you mention it someone wants to discredit it. When you mention ancient African ships, no one wants to pay it any attention. You want to talk about philosophy look up Ifa divination ancient Yoruba oracle. What about when you mention Africans using binary code? There have been so many contributions that have been either discredited or assumed to originate from a different race it's ridiculous. Technologically inept? Look up ancient African contributions to math, architecture, astronomy, medicine, and navigation. The problem is that whites had a head start with slavery, jim crow, the welfare system, and too many blacks were willing to part with building true power and wealth for acceptance in the dominant society. Correct there is too much infighting within African tribes. My point isn't saying that blacks should use slavery and Jim Crow as a badge of honor, but it's enough to say look at how much we are hated. If we want to avoid this from happening again we have to unite, because no one else cares. At least not in big numbers. The past crimes was from a government, that was a self identified white majority that saw blacks as subhuman. I think history is important when you learn the right lesson from it. It's not about victimhood.Claude Anderson was right.Ry wrote:The civil rights movement succeeded because of all the non-black participants in it and because blacks would be a voting block for democrats in the future. Prejudice towards blacks has been maintained because of black identity politics. It was guys like Bill Cosby who was a sitcom star and comedian who helped dissuade prejudice in millions of American homes not by being a black comedian but by being a comedian who was also black. Having a black family on MTV not defined by its otherness and blackness had more impact than the TV trash that followed which created black stereotypes all negative by the way and a huge chip on the shoulder.
White prejudice is not out of the blue. Little white kids look around and count up the number of inventors, scientist, discoverers, philosophers, and so on and find that there is an abundance of white men and a sprinkle of Asians and Jews and nothing else. The most famous black people are so only for trying to be equal with whites. Saying blacks were enslaved and oppressed doesn't matter to them because to be enslaved one group had to be inferior to another already or the dominant groups wouldn't be able to enslave them. One society sailed around the world in ships and the other was still throwing spears at food. NO one went down to Africa and forced them to be technologically inept. They see that not as environmental but as a genetic inferiority. Minorities in turn blame all the white people for past crimes which are in reality the result of the actions of GOVERNMENTS not races much less races many generations later.
Within Africa too its all about ethnic tribes and constant in-fighting in the Middle East its the same with one brand of Islam vs another and people constantly killing each other. It's classic divide and conquer. In Israel today it's the As a Jews, who collectively wear the holocaust as a badge who are colonizing the area with racial identity.
LGBT have not made their group more socially acceptable. They have done the opposite. Doing everything as homosexuals and only focusing on those issues has alienated them in the same way that feminist have alienated women. The acceptance of equality of women has come from all the normal women just being themselves and not defining themselves on the crutch of not being male.
LGBT is more socially acceptable. Would anyone be able to get away with being openly gay 50 years ago. I think that community has actually surpassed blacks as far as acceptance. A person could get away with saying a black racial slur more than they can a gay or jewish slur.
Re: Response to As a X...(or as an x)
No the majority was not black the majority in the civil rights movement was actually white. It was carried by the anti-war movement that co-insided with it. Blacks had had the same problem over a hundred years post Civil War why suddenly in the 60 did things change? The leaders of the NAACP were Jewish too. Blacks didn't take their rights, whites gave them their rights. They didn't act as a group on their blackness, they fought on the basis of their human-ness that all men are equal not that black people are different but deserve equal rights. You don't have laws against blacks without first having prejudice towards blacks and you don't erase the prejudice just by changing the laws. Backs still go to jail like 7 times as often as whites for the same crimes. It doesn't matter what the law is on paper. I don't why you are trying to write out a black history lesson lol its like the only one you get in public school. Everyone knows about Brown vs Ed, Rosa Parks, MLK, Douglas, Malcom, Emmit Till and so on it shoved down your throat in public school as the great injustice ever made over and over again from the time you are 7 to 17. The other history you learn is the 6 million i the holocaust and what good guys America was. I went to 3 different High Schools I think we read Why the Caged Bird sings in every one of them. Slavery and blackness is repeated so much that some idiots are not even aware that slavery existed for thousands of years before Western Europe contacts Africa and that all people of every color were made slaves including Africans owning other Africans and Europeans owning other Europeans. The word slave come from the Slavs which are just Eastern Europeans. The Chinese were made slaves after the civil war and were forced to build the rail roads. American idnains were just straight up hunted and killed. Everyone else assimilated within a generation or two besides blacks who continue to bottom out on all types of test scores across the board and thats what happened when the government grants special rights and crutch status they destroy a people.
it is a culture problem not genetic.
it is a culture problem not genetic.
Get The Empire Unmasked here
Re: Response to As a X...(or as an x)
Nice contrast Ry. Indeed were in a cultural war.
Its about finding humanity amongst the sociopathy. That transcends what race of human you are. Anything else can be to easily divided and more to the point, tell how you think...
Its about finding humanity amongst the sociopathy. That transcends what race of human you are. Anything else can be to easily divided and more to the point, tell how you think...
Re: Response to As a X...(or as an x)
One needs to differentiate "collectivism" as involuntary association from that of "voluntary association".
One also needs to differentiate identity politics from that of those designed to serve the purpose of demagoguery, or the purpose of cultural-marxism (i.e., the "class struggle" dynamic being applied to social groups/causes).
I don't have a problem with identity politics if they are not demagoguery or involuntary.
One also needs to differentiate identity politics from that of those designed to serve the purpose of demagoguery, or the purpose of cultural-marxism (i.e., the "class struggle" dynamic being applied to social groups/causes).
I don't have a problem with identity politics if they are not demagoguery or involuntary.
Re: Response to As a X...(or as an x)
Read the Constitution. Thats the best document I've seen trying to help people understand how those concepts work in a free society. They are both interchangeable in real life. They are in flux. So in one sense no law can force people how to behave in a purest sense. We need philosophies to guide us not control us.One needs to differentiate "collectivism" as involuntary association from that of "voluntary association".
Every type of philosophy has been corrupted as long as sociopaths are out there. Then when we or if ever learn how badly our Govt have been lying to us, this will be another foundational understanding of human nature.One also needs to differentiate identity politics from that of those designed to serve the purpose of demagoguery, or the purpose of cultural-marxism
You have to have a nature of trust with your fellow humans. If you give up liberty for security type of thing. The same thing is going on with big brother land sliding complete legitimacy.
I mean who knows maybe were supposed to be enslaved for our own good? Id rather believe we can be free and independent.
Re: Response to As a X...(or as an x)
As far as majority, I think you may be referring to the NAACP, and probably some other groups participation. When I'm referring to civil rights members I'm going beyond the period of about 1955- to the late 1960s. If you're taking the civil rights movement back to the late 1800s the anti war movement wasn't involved. I'm talking about as a whole. If you want to measure participant number by organizations, I'd agree with you on the NAACP (there are actually some people that don't even think the NAACP is a black organization along with the National Urban League). I'll probably need a refresher, but I think the Montgomery Improvement association was mostly black, the same thing with the SCLC,and Garvey's Universal Negro Improvement Association and African Communities. It's true white gave blacks rights. Maybe if the were more successful slave rebellions things would be different. Something I blame other blacks for, because there was a black snitch in just about all of the unsuccessful slave rebellions. All these people were well aware of how society viewed them, and they knew they're blackness was what they shared in common. If racism didn't exist then there would be no need to form any groups. But anyway, I also agree with you about the law on paper not mattering either. As far as the black history lesson, it was just a reply to a comment you made within the last post about a white person thinking little of the contribution of blacks. Also, it seems all school does when it comes to black history is cover only those things. They rarely cover anything about slave rebellions, black wall street, blacks pre slavery, nor blacks in other parts of the world pre slavery and pre colonialism in Africa. I'm not trying to downplay slavery as a whole, but people should acknowledge this was a distinct difference when comparing slavery to others and the slavery are referring to. I don't know of any other group that has gone from slavery for centuries, to a semi slavery/second class citizen state then finally still looked at as either inferior or not completely accepted in society. As far as acceptance is concerned it also extends to blacks amongst other blacks. I think wealth distribution is the one of the biggest telltale signs. Although blacks were oppressed during Jim Crow, they had a lot of businesses, and I think they had more overall wealth than they do collectively today ( I have to find the stat where I saw this). Some of these policies had a negative impact on blacks. As a lot of people say the government policies that destroyed the black family had a domino effect on everything else.Ry wrote:No the majority was not black the majority in the civil rights movement was actually white. It was carried by the anti-war movement that co-insided with it. Blacks had had the same problem over a hundred years post Civil War why suddenly in the 60 did things change? The leaders of the NAACP were Jewish too. Blacks didn't take their rights, whites gave them their rights. They didn't act as a group on their blackness, they fought on the basis of their human-ness that all men are equal not that black people are different but deserve equal rights. You don't have laws against blacks without first having prejudice towards blacks and you don't erase the prejudice just by changing the laws. Backs still go to jail like 7 times as often as whites for the same crimes. It doesn't matter what the law is on paper. I don't why you are trying to write out a black history lesson lol its like the only one you get in public school. Everyone knows about Brown vs Ed, Rosa Parks, MLK, Douglas, Malcom, Emmit Till and so on it shoved down your throat in public school as the great injustice ever made over and over again from the time you are 7 to 17. The other history you learn is the 6 million i the holocaust and what good guys America was. I went to 3 different High Schools I think we read Why the Caged Bird sings in every one of them. Slavery and blackness is repeated so much that some idiots are not even aware that slavery existed for thousands of years before Western Europe contacts Africa and that all people of every color were made slaves including Africans owning other Africans and Europeans owning other Europeans. The word slave come from the Slavs which are just Eastern Europeans. The Chinese were made slaves after the civil war and were forced to build the rail roads. American idnains were just straight up hunted and killed. Everyone else assimilated within a generation or two besides blacks who continue to bottom out on all types of test scores across the board and thats what happened when the government grants special rights and crutch status they destroy a people.
it is a culture problem not genetic.
Re: Response to As a X...(or as an x)
That's true, I agree. There are several things we can take away from this:R4F1 wrote:One needs to differentiate "collectivism" as involuntary association from that of "voluntary association".
One also needs to differentiate identity politics from that of those designed to serve the purpose of demagoguery, or the purpose of cultural-marxism (i.e., the "class struggle" dynamic being applied to social groups/causes).
I don't have a problem with identity politics if they are not demagoguery or involuntary.
1) the need to distinguish different kinds of collectivism ( Not all collectivism is bad or stupid)
2) The importance of history
3) I think when we refer to racism we should distinguish racism by an individual, which I'll label as racism or racial bigotry, and racism by either the state or a group with the power to oppress others, which I'll label Racism. Example: Paula dean is a racist. Israel is Racist. What do y'all think about that definition, or is there a better way to define it?
Re: Response to As a X...(or as an x)
You're using the same word "racist", but trying to make different uses for it with simply the choice of a small or large caps. That's just gonna confuse people.33breeze wrote:That's true, I agree. There are several things we can take away from this:R4F1 wrote:One needs to differentiate "collectivism" as involuntary association from that of "voluntary association".
One also needs to differentiate identity politics from that of those designed to serve the purpose of demagoguery, or the purpose of cultural-marxism (i.e., the "class struggle" dynamic being applied to social groups/causes).
I don't have a problem with identity politics if they are not demagoguery or involuntary.
1) the need to distinguish different kinds of collectivism ( Not all collectivism is bad or stupid)
2) The importance of history
3) I think when we refer to racism we should distinguish racism by an individual, which I'll label as racism or racial bigotry, and racism by either the state or a group with the power to oppress others, which I'll label Racism. Example: Paula dean is a racist. Israel is Racist. What do y'all think about that definition, or is there a better way to define it?